"
Never mind that not even a deranged mass murderer can use more than a
miniscule fraction of such a stockpile for the most meticulously planned
dastardly deed."
If it wasn't for the jamming of the drum, and remarkably close placement of the PD, the Colorado killer might have gone onto using way more of his stockpile.
The man we have to thank the most was the range owner who had the sense to feel the hair on the back of his neck rise when the killer tried to make use of the range. An experiment with the drum might have let him know that he had a problem, and he would have made sure he had at least one good drum of 100, and possibly more before proceeding. For all of his careful planning, ignoring the location of the gendarmes was one heckova an oversight.
Tonite, coming home to NSJ, I was treated to more on coming traffic than I've ever seen on the road, folks coming back from the North Columbia School House Storytelling Festival, a good 30 minutes from the Rood Center, even if you are going like a bat out of hell. One of the problems with these nut case events is that the next one always learns something from the previous one. Just as we have improved underwear bombers (and we do) so we have an armored to the nines dude this time. It has been done before, I recall in an LA shootout some years back, one of the first times the cops plaintively noted that they were outgunned by armored tormentors.
My schemes detailed before and now also at farstars.blogspot.com do not restrict the guns at all, and if you are a good citizen, enabke you to stockpile ever increasing amounts over time, but slowly, over time.
My bounty scheme for bounties for gun store employees goes right along with Greg's suggestion that we be more on the watch for such crazies.
Yes people can always resort to other means, but usually they are much more complicated than simply buying weaponry and ammo. On the day of the shooting, the saddest sack was the FBI dude wanting to know where this kid had learned all about bomb making, who taught him, must be coconspirators, the FBI dude obviously having never taken any of the chemistry required for premed or neurosciences. Heck, I nearly blew out my bedroom windows in 8 th grade, paying with oxidizers, etc.
Now as to: " Never mind that not even a deranged mass murderer can use more than a miniscule fraction of such a stockpile for the most meticulously planned dastardly deed." are you so sure?
And as for being able to take on the USA military, without mass defections, I really don't think so. 300 million handguns and rifles and shotgun, really are not going to last too long, against USA military firepower. You have to remember, other than military communications, the first thing a rogue government would do would be to secure all means of communication, by whatever means necessary, including blasting it to pieces. Line up all 300,000,000 on a beach and have them shoot at an aircraft carrier, two miles out. Now wait for the response. You see George, it's a great Heinlein fantasy, I loved them all as a kid, but it just doesn't work in real life.
And it sure as hell is piss poor excuse for not at least getting the ammo under control.
If it wasn't for the jamming of the drum, and remarkably close placement of the PD, the Colorado killer might have gone onto using way more of his stockpile.
The man we have to thank the most was the range owner who had the sense to feel the hair on the back of his neck rise when the killer tried to make use of the range. An experiment with the drum might have let him know that he had a problem, and he would have made sure he had at least one good drum of 100, and possibly more before proceeding. For all of his careful planning, ignoring the location of the gendarmes was one heckova an oversight.
Tonite, coming home to NSJ, I was treated to more on coming traffic than I've ever seen on the road, folks coming back from the North Columbia School House Storytelling Festival, a good 30 minutes from the Rood Center, even if you are going like a bat out of hell. One of the problems with these nut case events is that the next one always learns something from the previous one. Just as we have improved underwear bombers (and we do) so we have an armored to the nines dude this time. It has been done before, I recall in an LA shootout some years back, one of the first times the cops plaintively noted that they were outgunned by armored tormentors.
My schemes detailed before and now also at farstars.blogspot.com do not restrict the guns at all, and if you are a good citizen, enabke you to stockpile ever increasing amounts over time, but slowly, over time.
My bounty scheme for bounties for gun store employees goes right along with Greg's suggestion that we be more on the watch for such crazies.
Yes people can always resort to other means, but usually they are much more complicated than simply buying weaponry and ammo. On the day of the shooting, the saddest sack was the FBI dude wanting to know where this kid had learned all about bomb making, who taught him, must be coconspirators, the FBI dude obviously having never taken any of the chemistry required for premed or neurosciences. Heck, I nearly blew out my bedroom windows in 8 th grade, paying with oxidizers, etc.
Now as to: " Never mind that not even a deranged mass murderer can use more than a miniscule fraction of such a stockpile for the most meticulously planned dastardly deed." are you so sure?
And as for being able to take on the USA military, without mass defections, I really don't think so. 300 million handguns and rifles and shotgun, really are not going to last too long, against USA military firepower. You have to remember, other than military communications, the first thing a rogue government would do would be to secure all means of communication, by whatever means necessary, including blasting it to pieces. Line up all 300,000,000 on a beach and have them shoot at an aircraft carrier, two miles out. Now wait for the response. You see George, it's a great Heinlein fantasy, I loved them all as a kid, but it just doesn't work in real life.
And it sure as hell is piss poor excuse for not at least getting the ammo under control.
The
deranged person who wants to murder fellow humans will use the weapon
available. It has to do with the brain not the cold piece of steel
propelling lead shards through space. The most prolific serial
murderer in the 20th century was a Russian. He killed over one hundred
over many years. He used knives and strangulation. The result was the
same as if he murdered all at once.
The gun is a tool and if a person has no ill intent they will not use it in a way to kill as the Aurora killer did. The 2nd Amendment protects the rest.
The gun is a tool and if a person has no ill intent they will not use it in a way to kill as the Aurora killer did. The 2nd Amendment protects the rest.
A gun
is the most efficient killing tool on the planet, for individual use.
Moving one's finger less than 3/4 of an inch can end at least one other
persons' life instantly. It is also quite selective, and involves the
least harm to the operator. Staging head-on collisions and making up
explosives are fraught with far more dangers, as are strangulation and
knife use, if the other party gains the upper hand in the struggle.
Yes, a gun is a tool of many purposes, but it's prime purpose is to take
the life of another, be it a duck, a bear, or over 13,000 humans every
year in the USA alone. Anyone hunting game knows the advantages of the
rifle or shotgun for that purpose. The handgun primary purpose is for
use against another human, and how many of them do we have? And what
will it take for you to appreciate the need for a few roadblocks like
preventive over time restrictions on ammo purchases for you to
understand that, a death in your own family? That's called "learning
the hard way." I wouldn't wish it on anyone, which is why I have taken
such a pro-active approach, note the editorial in Saturday's The Union
newspaper.
And for the nitwits who think I have no experiences with fire arms, I own three, kept in a secure 600 lb safe, in a residence with gates, fences, sensors, dogs, pop-on lights, and plenty of space to allow plenty of time and warning to get to them, and enough deterrent effects in place to probably reduce the odds of having to go for them to near zero, despite being thoroughly rural. To keep mind, eye, and hand steady, beyond using my camera constantly, I am an archer, which is far more soothing to the peace of the neighborhood, than going bangity bang bang bang every day or two. It's cheaper too, and doesn't give away your location in the dark.
And for the nitwits who think I have no experiences with fire arms, I own three, kept in a secure 600 lb safe, in a residence with gates, fences, sensors, dogs, pop-on lights, and plenty of space to allow plenty of time and warning to get to them, and enough deterrent effects in place to probably reduce the odds of having to go for them to near zero, despite being thoroughly rural. To keep mind, eye, and hand steady, beyond using my camera constantly, I am an archer, which is far more soothing to the peace of the neighborhood, than going bangity bang bang bang every day or two. It's cheaper too, and doesn't give away your location in the dark.
The
debate on the original intent of the Second Amendment quickly goes into
its predictable groove. The liberals’ position can always be summarized
as ‘Government is good, resistance is futile.’ They inevitably paint
the ludicrous picture of civilians with hunting rifles and shotguns
holed up against the advance of massive mechanized divisions supported
by a sky filled with unimaginable air power, all arrayed by the
government to put down any opposition to its methods and means.
What is missed in such arguments (e.g. TomK’s 1203am) is that a tyrannical government does not rise through the co-opting of its military and turning it against its own people. Autocracies begin with bureaucratic thugs from NGOs and government agencies which are subverted one by one. These are usually security, intelligence, and regulatory enforcement agencies whose minions arrive surreptitiously at your door in the middle of the night to either execute you on the spot for ‘resisting’, or simply make you vanish. By the time the military is turned, those kinds of revolutions are over.
However, the small arms against tanks scenarios are common with people with little or no military experience. As an Army officer in a combat unit facing the Red Army, we often talked of the role of the militaries in maintaining the power of tyrannical regimes. Sooner or later the question would always come up, ‘Can it happen in America?’ And in my experience and the broader experience of others in such conversations, the answer was always no. None of us could conceive of any lawful order that would have us assault American civilians, even if they were firing at us, it was unthinkable. Such orders simply would not be followed. Dealing with civilian unrest was a political problem to be solved by our political leadership and their internal organs of power.
It is against the rogue political elements and the armed thugs that armed citizens can muster par force as the determining factor. It is then when par force (including just its presence) can make the unequivocal statement that the country will not fall to subterfuge in the dark of night; that whatever differences brought us to that point of contention, they will not be resolved with a one-sided use of firepower, but will be forcefully brought back into the light of day for a negotiated solution according to the mandates of our Constitution.
What is missed in such arguments (e.g. TomK’s 1203am) is that a tyrannical government does not rise through the co-opting of its military and turning it against its own people. Autocracies begin with bureaucratic thugs from NGOs and government agencies which are subverted one by one. These are usually security, intelligence, and regulatory enforcement agencies whose minions arrive surreptitiously at your door in the middle of the night to either execute you on the spot for ‘resisting’, or simply make you vanish. By the time the military is turned, those kinds of revolutions are over.
However, the small arms against tanks scenarios are common with people with little or no military experience. As an Army officer in a combat unit facing the Red Army, we often talked of the role of the militaries in maintaining the power of tyrannical regimes. Sooner or later the question would always come up, ‘Can it happen in America?’ And in my experience and the broader experience of others in such conversations, the answer was always no. None of us could conceive of any lawful order that would have us assault American civilians, even if they were firing at us, it was unthinkable. Such orders simply would not be followed. Dealing with civilian unrest was a political problem to be solved by our political leadership and their internal organs of power.
It is against the rogue political elements and the armed thugs that armed citizens can muster par force as the determining factor. It is then when par force (including just its presence) can make the unequivocal statement that the country will not fall to subterfuge in the dark of night; that whatever differences brought us to that point of contention, they will not be resolved with a one-sided use of firepower, but will be forcefully brought back into the light of day for a negotiated solution according to the mandates of our Constitution.
Further
notes on taking out a rogue government: In the early 1800's, the
weapons the government could muster, were not really that much more
advanced than what the private citizen had, and back then a band of
private citizens stood a chance, when the government was a 6 week sail
across the pond, or even local, with horseback riders for communication.
These day there is no way in heck citizens can compete with the half trillion a year they've been arming the government with for the last 60 years. Do the math. Add up the value of the citizens' net worth in arms, ammo, and armor. Now do the same with the government. The only thing the citizens have going for them is numbers, but only if ALL rose up. The NRA has all of what, 4 million members. The USA armed forces are all of .5 million. The 4 million outnumber the .5 five million, but the .5 million are a very, very, heavily armed, armoured, and communicating group. Good luck with that. As I pointed out before, a rogue government would start by taking over all communications channels, and silencing any remaining ham or cb units out there. You need to review, "The Russians are Coming, The Russians are Coming." The rogue government would not announce a takeover in advance, sorry about that.
Or maybe you really do consider the Obama administration to be such a "rogue government?" Are you going to have a coordinated attack if he is re-elected? Just how is that going to work? Maybe you should try listening to your fellow countrymen, who support a great deal of what he proposes and is doing. The last thing I want to see is a repeat of the Civil War, even if your side would lose so quickly it would be all over in six weeks, and much more likely, in six days.
These day there is no way in heck citizens can compete with the half trillion a year they've been arming the government with for the last 60 years. Do the math. Add up the value of the citizens' net worth in arms, ammo, and armor. Now do the same with the government. The only thing the citizens have going for them is numbers, but only if ALL rose up. The NRA has all of what, 4 million members. The USA armed forces are all of .5 million. The 4 million outnumber the .5 five million, but the .5 million are a very, very, heavily armed, armoured, and communicating group. Good luck with that. As I pointed out before, a rogue government would start by taking over all communications channels, and silencing any remaining ham or cb units out there. You need to review, "The Russians are Coming, The Russians are Coming." The rogue government would not announce a takeover in advance, sorry about that.
Or maybe you really do consider the Obama administration to be such a "rogue government?" Are you going to have a coordinated attack if he is re-elected? Just how is that going to work? Maybe you should try listening to your fellow countrymen, who support a great deal of what he proposes and is doing. The last thing I want to see is a repeat of the Civil War, even if your side would lose so quickly it would be all over in six weeks, and much more likely, in six days.
"It
is against the rogue political elements and the armed thugs that armed
citizens can muster par force as the determining factor. It is then when
par force (including just its presence) can make the unequivocal
statement that the country will not fall to subterfuge in the dark of
night; that whatever differences brought us to that point of contention,
they will not be resolved with a one-sided use of firepower, but will
be forcefully brought back into the light of day for a negotiated
solution according to the mandates of our Constitution."
This only works if 80 to 90 % of the citizenry agree with you, and you have a sudden precipitating event. The scenario you are faced with is the warming to boiling of the frog, and at no point does the frog become galvanized to respond, especially with our current majority culture. The bureaucratic and corporate takeover is a slow but inevitable process, and the dumbing down of our schools, especially by the denigrating of science by certain religious power groups, and the concentration on the bottom line quarter by quarter for maximum near time profits will be what doomed this country, if she goes down. Unregulated capitalism is too stupid for its own long term health, and the purchasing of Congress and the Presidency are the obvious signs of this inherent cancer. "Make it safe for me and my money, screw the rest of the citizenry," is no way to run a country that will endure.
This only works if 80 to 90 % of the citizenry agree with you, and you have a sudden precipitating event. The scenario you are faced with is the warming to boiling of the frog, and at no point does the frog become galvanized to respond, especially with our current majority culture. The bureaucratic and corporate takeover is a slow but inevitable process, and the dumbing down of our schools, especially by the denigrating of science by certain religious power groups, and the concentration on the bottom line quarter by quarter for maximum near time profits will be what doomed this country, if she goes down. Unregulated capitalism is too stupid for its own long term health, and the purchasing of Congress and the Presidency are the obvious signs of this inherent cancer. "Make it safe for me and my money, screw the rest of the citizenry," is no way to run a country that will endure.
"the
answer was always no. None of us could conceive of any lawful order that
would have us assault American civilians, even if they were firing at
us, it was unthinkable. Such orders simply would not be followed."
Which is why no protestors have ever been hurt of killed, even those who are not armed and are not shooting. What exactly do you think would have happened if OWS was an armed and shooting crowd?
NEXT!
Which is why no protestors have ever been hurt of killed, even those who are not armed and are not shooting. What exactly do you think would have happened if OWS was an armed and shooting crowd?
NEXT!
2nd amendment
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
The first half of the second amendment always seems to be left out. The purpose behind the well regulated militia was to prevent the need of standing armies in times of peace. Standing armies were feared to create mischief and were the oppressive enforcers of the rulers. An example of this is the disgusting Christian slaughterer Oliver Cromwell.
We are conservators to an elderly gentleman from Galway, Ireland. He says there is folk lore in many Irish towns about Ned of the Hills. Here is one of my favorite bands "The Pogues" who wrote a song about the Cromwell and the deeds he did to those who didn't believe in his version of the bible.
"Young Ned of the Hills"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-y2ox2HPnc&feature=related
This statement is very good "The deranged person who wants to murder fellow humans will use the weapon available." This is why automatic, semiautomatic weapons with 100 round magazine's should not be available to ordinary citizens. I am a supporter of the second amendment, I learned before the age of 10 to handle, shoot, maintain, and store a gun properly. Military grade weapons should not be at the finger tips of any citizen who can fill out an online form properly, which seems to be the case for the latest mentally disturbed mass murderer in Aurora.
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
The first half of the second amendment always seems to be left out. The purpose behind the well regulated militia was to prevent the need of standing armies in times of peace. Standing armies were feared to create mischief and were the oppressive enforcers of the rulers. An example of this is the disgusting Christian slaughterer Oliver Cromwell.
We are conservators to an elderly gentleman from Galway, Ireland. He says there is folk lore in many Irish towns about Ned of the Hills. Here is one of my favorite bands "The Pogues" who wrote a song about the Cromwell and the deeds he did to those who didn't believe in his version of the bible.
"Young Ned of the Hills"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-y2ox2HPnc&feature=related
This statement is very good "The deranged person who wants to murder fellow humans will use the weapon available." This is why automatic, semiautomatic weapons with 100 round magazine's should not be available to ordinary citizens. I am a supporter of the second amendment, I learned before the age of 10 to handle, shoot, maintain, and store a gun properly. Military grade weapons should not be at the finger tips of any citizen who can fill out an online form properly, which seems to be the case for the latest mentally disturbed mass murderer in Aurora.
George,
Here is where you tragically do not understand American history or choose to ignore big chunks of American history. We are supposed to be the government so our future revolutions will be fought at the polling places not the battlefields. That's why it was a radical idea. The revolution wasn't fought for the US to have no government it was fought so that the US would have representative government of the governed. Government through the consent of the people. This is where I don't get your conservatarian thought process. It seems you want a small few people controlling the government, which I think in your logic means small government. That might be so but small government doesn't mean benign government but in many cases the exact opposite. Little services for those outside of the elites but massive oppression to prevent common people having leisure time to philosophize and act upon the rights outlined in the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights.
Here is where you tragically do not understand American history or choose to ignore big chunks of American history. We are supposed to be the government so our future revolutions will be fought at the polling places not the battlefields. That's why it was a radical idea. The revolution wasn't fought for the US to have no government it was fought so that the US would have representative government of the governed. Government through the consent of the people. This is where I don't get your conservatarian thought process. It seems you want a small few people controlling the government, which I think in your logic means small government. That might be so but small government doesn't mean benign government but in many cases the exact opposite. Little services for those outside of the elites but massive oppression to prevent common people having leisure time to philosophize and act upon the rights outlined in the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights.
It
appears that the discussion has settled in its traditional groove with
the erection of straw men, their attribution to the opposition, then
concluding with their summary dispatch while the 'Government is good,
resistance is futile' banner is rehoisted.
Meanwhile, a more careful attendance to the debate of the day will produce examples like this morning's NPR piece on the historical red/blue division of the country in which no correspondent could envision any pre-election compromise in Congress, and very little afterward. The pundits' wisdom appears to be that whichever side wins will make life hell for the losing side.
The Founders anticipated such contingencies and provided for their peaceful consideration and resolution. It is when such peaceful means are rejected that violent alternatives rise to the forefront.
Meanwhile, a more careful attendance to the debate of the day will produce examples like this morning's NPR piece on the historical red/blue division of the country in which no correspondent could envision any pre-election compromise in Congress, and very little afterward. The pundits' wisdom appears to be that whichever side wins will make life hell for the losing side.
The Founders anticipated such contingencies and provided for their peaceful consideration and resolution. It is when such peaceful means are rejected that violent alternatives rise to the forefront.
George
In you're interpretation of the Second Amendment do I have the right to possess chemical and biological weapons consistent with those possess by the US military? If not what limitations do you place on the citizenry?
PaulE
1242pm - Right on time Paul. You clearly did not read my par force
paper, so the straw man you have erected is delightfully extravagant.
The 'par' in par force is with that of the local constabulary. And it's
purpose is not to defeat, but to delay until the grievances get broad
enough of a hearing to either develop broad support, or let the
resistors swing in the wind.
" It is when such peaceful means are rejected that violent alternatives rise to the forefront."
How will this state of affairs be determined and by whom?
Possibly simply by those with the most guns? NRA for President?
How will this state of affairs be determined and by whom?
Possibly simply by those with the most guns? NRA for President?
I get
a laugh every time this issue comes p and the left tosses a "tank" or a
"nuke" into the mix to make their point against the pistol and long
guns. The SCOTUS finally said the 2nd means what it says and the
individual is part of the mix. I see BenE left out the comma as all the
liberals do. I find it more honorable for a American to defens all the
Amendments rather than pick and choose as the Emery's seem to do all
the time.
So Todd, my question stands and it was for George but you can take a crack at it. What limits if any do you support
"The
universal possession of force on par with local state authorities should
be sufficient to prevent such perverted authority from quickly snuffing
out or ‘containing’ the griev-ance."
Gee George,
So far the sheriff hasn't ever tried to shut me up, as much as L.W. would like him to. I don't see your point at all with this. Between blogging, letters to the editor, and speaking out in public when appropriate, I've had no trouble getting my grievances across. The only time I'd like to use "par force" is when I'm on talk radio and the host does use a volume slider to shut me up just as I am making salient points and blowing his arguments out of the water. That why I seldom go there anymore.
You make the sheriff sound as though he comes from Nottingham.
Gee George,
So far the sheriff hasn't ever tried to shut me up, as much as L.W. would like him to. I don't see your point at all with this. Between blogging, letters to the editor, and speaking out in public when appropriate, I've had no trouble getting my grievances across. The only time I'd like to use "par force" is when I'm on talk radio and the host does use a volume slider to shut me up just as I am making salient points and blowing his arguments out of the water. That why I seldom go there anymore.
You make the sheriff sound as though he comes from Nottingham.
TomK
135pm - I do believe that you really don't know. Welcome to the
Constitution, Article 5, and the 'inalienable right of secession'
articulated in our Declaration of Independence.
http://mises.org/daily/3427
http://mises.org/daily/3427
I'm
trying to picture this. I don't like the new green dumpsters, and I say
so on Facebook. The sheriff comes to the gate and says, "shut up about
that." He points a gun at me, just as I drop down my secret hatch hole
to my radio transmitter, and I get all my buddies to drive over and
start shooting at the sheriff from his rear so that I can get my message
out even further, and so more folks will come, and back up the first
group.
This is just plain weird!
This is just plain weird!
And yet this is what you use to justify blind allegiance to the 2nd Amendment?
TomK
159pm 205pm - It appears that as with the Great Divide, a reasoned
discussion of the Second Amendment is also not accessible to you. I
think the last pair of your straw men just escorted you out of this
discussion.
Secession
is the plan? Well, first you have to get enough like minded people to
all move to one state and become the majority in that state, and then go
from there. Good Luck, please leave CO UT WY and ID alone. I like the
skiing there.
Well
Spoken Tom. Timothy McVey , a militia movement sympathizer, sought
revenge against the federal government for its handling of the Waco
Siege, as well as for the Ruby Ridge incident in 1992. Was he exercising
his 2nd Amendment option? Does any individual or group have the right
to make that judgement and what about the rights of those that don't
subscribe to the remedy?
Let's also include the question about the secession of Southern States leading to the Civil War.
Let's also include the question about the secession of Southern States leading to the Civil War.
#############################################################################
Reasonable firearm possession by trained owners for self defense against criminal activity doesn't require military assault rifles and thousands of rounds of ammunition.
" Identical to a separate bill introduced by amendment sponsor Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ), the senators’ amendment to the Cybersecurity Act would ban the sale or transfer of large capacity feeders like magazines, belts, feed stripes and drums that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition with the exception of .22 caliber rim fire ammunition.
The amendment was introduced amid growing outcry from police and gun control advocates who want Washington to take a stand on gun control. New York City Mayor Bloomberg prominently demanded action hours after the Aurora theater shooting. The White House pledged to strengthen existing gun rules but has since clarified that the administration will not promote new legislation.
24-year-old James Holmes, the prime suspect in the Aurora shooting, purchased a 100 round drum magazine. Jared Loughner, who shot former Rep. Gabby Giffords (D-AZ) in 2011 along with 18 others, used an extended magazine that held 33 bullets, and police found two more 15-round magazines in his pockets. Under the federal assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004, these two killers could not have legally purchased these large capacity ammunition feeding devices. On the state level, California, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey and New York all prohibit the sale of high capacity magazines."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_School_massacre